tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post8356760327753833779..comments2024-03-19T21:41:42.835+01:00Comments on Poemas del río Wang: A city in-betweenStudiolumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-14860686882305692242013-02-26T03:51:48.560+01:002013-02-26T03:51:48.560+01:00A bit more on the Assirians in the ethnic mosaic o...A bit more on the Assirians in the ethnic mosaic of new Old Tbilisi in <a href="http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ideas-innovations/How-to-Save-a-Dying-Language-187947061.html" rel="nofollow">Smithsonian magazine</a> (scroll to the last page), courtesy of LanguageHat (who admits being fascinated by all things Aramaic)MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-86083975863778119662012-12-09T09:52:11.144+01:002012-12-09T09:52:11.144+01:00and yes, the pictures of the destroyed Shiite mosq...and yes, the pictures of the destroyed Shiite mosque at the Maidan’s bridge are the ones starting <a href="http://riowang.blogspot.com.es/2010/11/chronlicler-of-caucasus.html" rel="nofollow">the post on Ermakov’s photos</a><br /><br />In June 2011 there was a huge exhibition on Shah Abbas in the British Museum. I have purchased the excellent catalog, and I have been continuously planning to write on it. Now I will really do so.Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-90904625900055809842012-12-08T10:48:37.395+01:002012-12-08T10:48:37.395+01:00I have uploaded Anchabadze’s Stary Tbilisi here.I have uploaded Anchabadze’s <i>Stary Tbilisi</i> <a href="http://www.studiolum.com/wang/lib/AnchabadzeTbilisi1990.zip" rel="nofollow">here.</a>Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-5573807059637215732012-12-08T10:34:07.213+01:002012-12-08T10:34:07.213+01:00Thanks for more insights, MOCKBA, and yes, indeed,...Thanks for more insights, <i>MOCKBA</i>, and yes, indeed, for example in the Qazakh region of today's Azerbaijan, which borders Republics of Georgia and Armenia, the traditionally Shia and Sunni villages are mixed.<br /><br />As for Tiflis (and other major Caucasian cities) being predominantly ethnic Armenian, this is not true, although this is what Armenian nationalists are trying to assert everywhere (it was not true even for Iravan/Erivan/Yerevan before the Russian conquest). Even in 1897 according to the results of the first census in the Russian Empire, after dramatic demographics changes due to massive settlement of Armenians from Ottoman Empire and Persia, due to the administrative status of Tiflis, there were 47.6K Russians, 47.1K Armenians and 42K Georgians (Tatar/Azeris were 5.5K). And although not in the city itself, Georgians were the majority in <a href="http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/emp_lan_97_uezd.php?reg=524" rel="nofollow">the greater Tiflis <i>uyezd</i></a> (Georgian 80.3K, Armenian 57.9K, Russian 55.4K, Tatar (Azeri) 13.8K, German 5.4K, Polish 4.9K, Greek 4.6K, Persian 1.8K, Osetian 1.7K and French only 0.3K) and they were an absolute majority in the whole Tiflis gouvernement (Georgian ~467K, Armenian ~196K, Tatar ~107K and Russian ~86K). <br /><br />Once <i>Studiolum</i> stated that it is "like walking over eggs". The reason why is <a href="http://www.amsi.ge/istoria/somx/kamni.html" rel="nofollow">was written back in 1902</a> by Georgian intellectual, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilia_Chavchavadze" rel="nofollow">Ilya Chavchavadze</a>. An excerpt about a visit by the French Le Temps correspondent would be interesting to <i>Catherine</i>, I believe.Arazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14791220527752500079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-58025827802062217412012-12-08T03:04:22.011+01:002012-12-08T03:04:22.011+01:00Araz, I was surprised too (especially coming right...Araz, I was surprised too (especially coming right after Catherine's, so reasonable, statement that Tatars should have equated to Shiites and Azerbijanis, it was a surprise to see the Tatars of the only standing mosque were neither). I was also surprised to learn that a fairly large minority of Azeris are historically Sunni. <br /><br />There turn out to be many many accounts online; the following two may be among the most authoritatively written (of course all we can do with a google book is to search and see little text snippets)<br />http://anthropology.ru/ru/texts/baindurashvili/postsoviet_07.html<br />http://books.google.com/books/about/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%A2%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B8.html?id=XjkdAAAAMAAJ<br /><br />The latter book is one of the few sources which insist that the "Blue" mosque of "Ali's Sect" has been built in 1606 on the orders of Shakh Abbas I, just confirming to me many how murky are the historical details on the XVII c Tiflis. It also notes the role of Kazan' Tatars, Lezgins, and minority Sunni Azerbaijanis in the Sunni community, and their communal events happening on Botanischeskaya St. outside of the surviving mosque. Notably, like most big cities in the region, the XIXc Tiflis has been predominantely ethnic Armenian with a large fraction of ethnic Russians, and the Muslims of all extractions remained a tiny minority in the city.<br /><br />Today the Sunni leaders of both the old town mosque, and the new Juma Mosque, are Azerbaijanis, and the tradition of sharing the mosque space with the Shia appears to live on.<br /><br />Yes, and it goes without saying that the locals sometimes use religious labels instead of the ethnonyms, too. Specifically the Kurds of Tbilisi are virtually never referred to as such, but always as Yazids.<br /><br />And lastly, the famed ceramic tiles of Shakh Abbas's aren't all lost. Some tiles from the minaret are said to have been preserved in a city museum.<br />MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-88566126129656986302012-12-07T22:23:54.406+01:002012-12-07T22:23:54.406+01:00Greek church ? Armenian cathedral? Hum, I had hope...Greek church ? Armenian cathedral? Hum, I had hoped you wouldn't have noticed it …Catherinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-10765153240510010222012-12-07T20:42:56.989+01:002012-12-07T20:42:56.989+01:00MOCKBA, thanks for the insights. So you say that t...<i>MOCKBA</i>, thanks for the insights. So you say that the surviving mosque was a Tatar-Tatar mosque originally? I did not know that... <br />Ah, c'mon, <i>Catherine</i>, look deeper. "Greek church" or "Armenian cathedral" sound perfectly as naming a place by its "ethnical" status to me :-) Anyway, thanks again for nice photos. I have been only once in Tbilisi, and loved it very much.Arazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14791220527752500079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-1860803745243333342012-12-07T17:18:55.987+01:002012-12-07T17:18:55.987+01:00Right, I went on digging sources about the Old Tbi...Right, I went on digging sources about the Old Tbilisi's only Shiite Mosque a.k.a. as Shakh Abbas's. The other Maidan mosque, in your pictures, has been built in 1860s by Sunni Kazan Tatars, and is still known as Kazan-Tatara Mosque. But after the demolition of Shakh Abbas Mosque in 1950/1951, the surviving mosque is shared between the Shia and the Sunni. Yes, really!<br /><br />Like then, like now, the authorities aren't particularly excited about mosques and Georgia's Muslim heritage in general, and the story of the destroyed mosque remains full of legend and rumor. The name of Abbas the Builder is, I already said, a legend common among all former borderlands of the Safavid Empire. Others say that this Tbilisi mosque must have been at least a century younger, that it may have been originally constructed by the Turks rather than by the Persians, and that it may have been completely rebuilt later under Shakh Ismail. But whatever its age and original name, Shakh Abbas's remained the visual calling card of Tbilisi Meidan when it still stood there by the old bridge.MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-50089597337155959282012-12-07T15:11:59.548+01:002012-12-07T15:11:59.548+01:00Thanks to you for the compliments, the questions a...Thanks to you for the compliments, the questions and the observations too.<br />First, about Shah-Abbas mosque. After some inquiries, it seems that it was not built upon the promontory (if you thought of the Metekhi promontory where stands today an old church) but just on the other side of the river where there is now this large square, the Meydan. Nothing is sure about its construction or its creator — Abbas or not —, it was not a very large building and it was razed to the ground in 1948 or 1951 when they built the new bridge. <br />Then, the Yezid Kurds and the Assyrians. The Kurds seem to be less than 20 000 in Georgia (from 35 000 in 1989) — maybe only 6 000, all of them Yezids as the Muslim Kurds from Eastern Georgia have been deported together with Meskhetian Tuks and Muslims Kurds from Batumi and Adzharia between 1937 and 1946 — and the Assyrians could be 8 000 left (they were between 8 500 and 12 000 in 1989 but half of them left the country in the 90s). Kurds look as though they are more assimilated in Georgian society, at least in a cultural point of view, but they don't have distinct sanctuaries in Georgia (and never had), whereas Assyrians who live all in a few villages keep a stronger identity. There were still 4 Kurdish scholls in Tbilissi ten years ago. In the 1990s the theater and the dance group were closed down while the radio stopped its broadcasts in Kurdish developed since the 60s. But I don't know about a specifically Kurd or Assyrian place in Tbilissi, in 2003 Kurds seemed to live in compact communities in the outskirt of Tbilissi after having left the Kakhetian villages where they live since the XVIII century, and Assyrians live in places like Asureti, 50 km from Tbilissi or near Mtskheta. 2 500 still live in Tbilissi. <br />And Araz, I am so sorry to appear to neglect the Azeri presence and tradition in the town… In fact, it was absolutely obvious to me when writing about a Shiite mosque that it was a Tatar or an Azeri one — but either I was not enough punctilious when choosing a word instead of another, or I kept the Georgian naming of the place — or it's just a Westerner and French habit to name a place by its religious status rather than by an ethnical one so I'll try to be less French the next time ! <br />Catherinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-91771159476975325222012-12-06T21:17:16.857+01:002012-12-06T21:17:16.857+01:00Tiflis/Tbilisi is the jewel of Caucasus, indeed. T...Tiflis/Tbilisi is the jewel of Caucasus, indeed. Thanks for the post and beautiful photos once again. Yet again, for an Azerbaijani reader it is frustrating how easily a Western writer can neglect Azeri tradition in Tiflis. The same mosque is not a "Shiite" one, rather a "Tatar mosque" on <a href="http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4325855/" rel="nofollow">a 1910 postcard</a>. And Tatars is how today’s Azerbaijanis/Azeri Turks were referred to officially in the Russian Empire among other terms like Muslims, Persians or Turks. So, by the way, in many cases "Perisyanin/Персiянин" do not refer to a person of Persian ethnicity rather to an Azeri.Arazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14791220527752500079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-86068870095149935242012-12-06T17:06:36.530+01:002012-12-06T17:06:36.530+01:00Sweet juxtaposition of the old and the preent, tha...Sweet juxtaposition of the old and the preent, thanks! Tbilisi is the only one of the grand capital cities of the Transcaucasian which I expereienced sort of hobo styles, sleeping on its parks and under its bridges, surving on a few pennies a day, wandering around on my feet. I vividly remember the contrast between the formal, unwelcoming Alexanderstadt and the wide-open South End. At down I'd stop by Soldatsky Market and help unloading produce trucks, and pick bunched herbs and ripe tomatoes from the farmers, to cross the bridge towards Avlabar heights where a bakery would just open with hot flatbreads of <i>lavash</i> - to pair with my herbs and veggies for the first hot meal of the day. <br /><br />Isn't this rocky promontory where Shakh Abbas Mosque used to stand? The XVI c. conqueror king remained a legendary superpower ruler and city planner for the nations he once subdued, and I'm confident that Stalin's rings of canals and rings of towers around Moscow reflected the dictator's dream of outdoing Shakh Abbas, at last. But first, before that happened, the jealous dictator ordered demolition of Shakh Abbas's masterpiece in his hometown...<br /><br />PS: and where are the Yazid Kurds in Tbilisi nowadays? What about the Assirians?MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.com