tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post928695405150951063..comments2024-03-19T21:41:42.835+01:00Comments on Poemas del río Wang: GamblingStudiolumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-2026056147775723402011-01-20T23:30:06.163+01:002011-01-20T23:30:06.163+01:00But of course you have an interest ex officio in k...<i>But of course you have an interest ex officio in knowing the right etymology of this word in whatever language, don’t you? :)</i><br /><br />Ha!languagehathttp://languagehat.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-59793703372184910202011-01-20T16:50:54.646+01:002011-01-20T16:50:54.646+01:00Thanks, Language! Although Szinnyei is standing on...Thanks, Language! Although Szinnyei is standing on my shelf, I have never checked the origin of “hat”, I have just accepted the widespread pro-Turkic opinion on its origin. But of course you have an interest <i>ex officio</i> in knowing the right etymology of this word in whatever language, don’t you? :)<br /><br />As to the Ленскiй Горный Округъ, while being aware of the name’s ultimately coming from that of the Lena river, I have read it in Russian sources – don’t ask me where – that this district was specifically centered around the town of Lensk. Of course it does not matter from the point of view of the post if actually it was not.Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-33575367431019570012011-01-20T16:23:18.501+01:002011-01-20T16:23:18.501+01:00Hungarian hat, ‘six’ also comes from Turkic altı o...<i>Hungarian hat, ‘six’ also comes from Turkic altı or its predecessor</i><br /><br />Surely rather from Finno-Ugric <i>kutte</i>. Szinnyei's <i>Finnisch-ugrische Sprachwissenschaft</i> has a whole slew of cognates from Finnish <i>kuusi</i> to Khanty <i>xut</i>.languagehathttp://languagehat.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-47543056132799266222011-01-20T16:11:42.919+01:002011-01-20T16:11:42.919+01:00Wonderful post! But the Ленскiй Горный Округъ doe...Wonderful post! But the Ленскiй Горный Округъ doesn't have anything to do with the town of Lensk as far as I know; ленский is simply the adjective 'pertaining to the Lena River.'<br /><br />(I wish I could help you with the Persian words for 'heads' and 'tails'; I thought my Русско-персидский словарь would do the trick, but alas there was no entry for решка, and for орел there was only the literal meaning.)languagehathttp://languagehat.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-54692284958248574842011-01-16T18:05:10.572+01:002011-01-16T18:05:10.572+01:00A cool story about the 7th tower, thanks! I was tr...A cool story about the 7th tower, thanks! I was trying to find any sixpence sorts of coins in the historical Central Asia / Middle East and all in vain. But it seems like the 3-kopek Muscovy altyn actually stands for the well-known tetradrachma aka shekel. In post-Hellenistic Iran, coins were minted in denominations of drachmas, one-and-half drachmas, and four drachmas (and the drachmas themselves were divisible into 6 obols). Minting of the larger denominations stopped well short of the Arab conquests, because of common machinations with adulterated silver alloys, and only dirhams << drachmas remained in circulation. But I could imagine that the use of tetradrachmas as counting units continued.<br />Now, the XIV-XVth centuries Russian denga is often cited as a local equivalent of the Horde's dirham, but actually it was smaller, pegged exactly to 2/3rds of the weight of a dirham (And when the cash-strapped Khan Tokhtamysh reduced the weight of silver dirhams of the Horde, the Russians immediately readjusted the denga to the 2/3rds of the new standard). <br /><br />So alti-tenge => 4 dirhams.<br /><br />That may be the origin of the meaning of the unit, but the actuak minted altyn and 5-altyn coins are almost certainly of German inspiration, as the larger denominations of kopeks didn't appear in circulation until XVIIth century (and circulated along with stamped-over German coins such as Joachimstalers)MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-77818168826470647362011-01-16T15:28:24.452+01:002011-01-16T15:28:24.452+01:00Actually, I was going to write in my previous comm...Actually, I was going to write in my previous comment that strangely I can't remember how we would say "орел или решка" in Azerbaijani. My Turkish is not perfect and Persian is non-existent, so I can only guess that the situation is the same also there.Arazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14791220527752500079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-42257521430930565312011-01-16T14:03:39.216+01:002011-01-16T14:03:39.216+01:00A beautiful story with a genial solution, very fit...A beautiful story with a genial solution, very fitting to a generous Sultan. Hungarian <i>hat,</i> ‘six’ also comes from Turkic <i>altı</i> or its predecessor, and it is also a source of pun, as some nouns, if they are six (“hat …”) are homonymous with some quite different nouns beginning in “hat…”.<br /><br />BTW, how do you say ‘heads or tails’ in Azerbaijani and in Turkish? And in Persian? I would say سر یا دم as a calque after the English, but I’m absolutely not sure it actually sounds like this.Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-6420851815007859742011-01-16T12:44:15.648+01:002011-01-16T12:44:15.648+01:00Nice post, interesting discussion. Wikipedia in Ge...Nice post, interesting discussion. Wikipedia in German features <i>Altyn</i> coin minted by Peter the First: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altyn <br /><br />I think it's not strange that you wouldn't find any <i>altı</i> coin in Turkish, since in my pinion Ottoman culture and statehood is not very much related to the Tatar Altyn Orda. <br /><br />The discussion reminded me the legend about construction of the Sultan Ahmed Mosque (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altyn) in Istanbul. Sultan Ahmed I ordered to build <i>altın</i> (golden) minarets, but the architect got it as <i>altı</i> (six). Having six minarets was criticized because at that time the main mosque in Mekka was he only mosque with six minarets. Sultan solved the issue by ordering to build one more minaret in Mekka.Arazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14791220527752500079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-85769229617843586332011-01-16T06:38:25.824+01:002011-01-16T06:38:25.824+01:00one-way: По крайней мере это мое мнение. Не знаю к...one-way: По крайней мере это мое мнение. Не знаю как это по официальной этимологии.<br /><br />МОСКВА: Furthermore, the Turkish origin would not explain the presence of a 15 in the system (it would be a one-and-a-quarter coin in the system of the Horde which sounds quite absurd). And although I do read Turkish, I have never encountered any old coin denomination <i>altı</i> (which, me being no expert, does not prove anything, it is just a hint).<br /><br />I would rather assume that as Peter I’s first kopeks imitated in their design the German imperial Kreutzer (in fact, their reverse also came with a full width Kreutz), so a number of other common German denominations were also taken over into the Russian system, without canceling its decimal character.Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-85050317072061156992011-01-16T03:34:28.400+01:002011-01-16T03:34:28.400+01:00At a closer look, the altin may be of Tatar Horde ...At a closer look, the altin may be of Tatar Horde origin, but it has nothing to do with gold. All the experts maintain that it is derived from Alti (number 6) and that an Altin corresponded to 6 denga (or 3 kopeks). The reason is the same as with the German system (the ease of division; the Horde used duodecimal system for their money). The earliest denga coins were even printed with Arabic inscriptions praising the Khans, and / or with the <i>tamga</i> (Khan's brand, which, intriguingly, looked pretty much like a lattice! The other side had the likeness of a Russian duke). But Russian coinage remained decimal, and the early Altin was a mere counting unit. The actual 3 kopek coins weren't minted until two centuries later...MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-17233618276907609812011-01-16T00:24:03.823+01:002011-01-16T00:24:03.823+01:00теперь я знаю, откуда взялось слово решка.
one_w...теперь я знаю, откуда взялось слово решка.<br /><br /><br />one_wayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-87702536178054480052011-01-15T21:46:51.714+01:002011-01-15T21:46:51.714+01:00As in pre-1870 Austro-Hungarian coin system too th...As in pre-1870 Austro-Hungarian coin system too there was a 3 Kreutzer value (called Kaysergroschen, or in Hungarian “máriás” that is “Mary’s money” after the characteristic reverse design of the Körmöcbánya/Kremnitz mint) as well as a 15 Kreutzer coin (called Fünfzehner) the existence of an алтин of 3 kopeiki and its quintuple in the Russian system seemed natural to me as a young amateur coin collector. It was only much later that I discovered that this was rather an exception.<br /><br />Despite the Turkish term, I rather think that these values come from the medieval German coin system where one Reichsgulden was 60 Kreutzer, and its existing (minted) denominations were 30 (Halbergulden), 20, 15, 6, 5, 4 (the Batz) 3, 2.5 and 2. I do not know why the Reichsgulden was originally divided in 60, but this number has the great advantage of divisibility with 2, 3, 4 and 5, and the coin system seems to have perfectly exploited it to provide the users with the most variable small denominations.Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-65935181596958219422011-01-15T20:54:44.522+01:002011-01-15T20:54:44.522+01:00It was always challenging for the Soviet kids sinc...It was always challenging for the Soviet kids since the "orel" had no eagles whatsoever. But what boggles my mind more about those coins is the persistence of 3 and 15 (алтын и пятиалтынный). The origin seem to be the Turkic "golden", but why 3, and what other nations adhered to this system?MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4565845984512808077.post-24954747580592706282011-01-15T13:52:49.968+01:002011-01-15T13:52:49.968+01:00I will leave your advertisement on, if within a da...I will leave your advertisement on, if within a day you tell how to say “heads or tails” in five more unusual languages. Deal?Studiolumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377777909296284368noreply@blogger.com